*Our cutlass bearings (the generic noun) are also Cutless bearings (the specific brand name, incorrect spelling intentional and a trademark).* That was not an incorrect spelling, but rather a description of the benefits from this type of bearing. BF Goodrich was the originator of this type of bearing many, many years ago. (Not sure if they invented it, but they definitely made and sold it.) The reason for the name was that it was intended to replace earlier types of metallic bearings that literally ***cut*** into the prop shaft over time. When the patents ran out other companies started making this sort of bearing. Since *Cutless* was a long-lasting trademark, well beyond the life of the patent, the imitator(s) came up with the name *cutlass*. Nothing related to swords or Oldsmobiles. It is now pretty generic, for no good reason other than common usage. Gene Fuller *Yorkshire Rose* NT 37136 Punta Gorda, FL

Cool info Gene! Just clarifying for all those who think I’m an ignoramus who can’t spell, haha. :) I still think Olds Cutless Sierra has potential! The market would be huge! b > On Feb 7, 2025, at 15:00, Gene Fuller via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: > > Our cutlass bearings (the generic noun) are also Cutless bearings (the specific brand name, incorrect spelling intentional and a trademark). > > That was not an incorrect spelling, but rather a description of the benefits from this type of bearing. > > BF Goodrich was the originator of this type of bearing many, many years ago. (Not sure if they invented it, but they definitely made and sold it.) The reason for the name was that it was intended to replace earlier types of metallic bearings that literally cut into the prop shaft over time. > > When the patents ran out other companies started making this sort of bearing. Since Cutless was a long-lasting trademark, well beyond the life of the patent, the imitator(s) came up with the name cutlass. Nothing related to swords or Oldsmobiles. It is now pretty generic, for no good reason other than common usage. > > Gene Fuller > > Yorkshire Rose > > NT 37136 > > Punta Gorda, FL > > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org

thank you Ben for the corrections, I have a correction of my own, the shaft bearing lubrication water pressure bullet should have been: * Raw water pressure requirements: PYI Inc, says a MAX of 10 psi of raw water pressure for their PSS Dripless Shaft Seal for boats going over 12 knots. The folks at PYI Pro installation instructions go on that: "... at over approximately 12 knots of speed a vacuum is created in the stern tube and water is drawn away from the PSS resulting in a loss of cooling water that may cause the carbon to over heat..." * and - for any displacement boat with bearings in a shaft log (that fiberglass part of the boat to which the shaft seal is attached and both 8" long shaft bearings are inserted that) "...must plumb water to the seal. Regardless of the method, it is imperative that the mating faces of the stainless steel rotor and carbon stator receive adequate water flow to cool and lubricate the seal faces at all times." They go on to add that low speed vessels can attach a vent hose to their PSS seal as long at the open end is fixed central to the vessel and is at least 2' above the water line. But for vessels whose prop ever comes out of the water, they need a pressurized lubrication water feed. My bad, thank you again Ben! ________________________________ From: Ben McCafferty <bmacpiper@me.com> Sent: Friday, February 7, 2025 1:09 PM To: South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> Cc: Kelly Britz <kelbritz@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Sentoa] Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals Hey Kelly! Wow, that’s a ton of great info, thanks for adding that for the archives! A couple of minor additions for posterity: Our cutlass bearings (the generic noun) are also Cutless bearings (the specific brand name, incorrect spelling intentional and a trademark). Duramax is also sometimes seen as Johnson or Johnson Duramax—same thing, especially if called “Cutless” as per above. Lastly, I’m curious/pondering the 4gpm of recommended flow to the cutlass bearings, and 10psi for the PSS. Since the PSS can be used on a slow boat with no pressurized water feed—just with a snorkel from the pss barb—in theory, the water floods into the log/stern tube from the back when you burp the seal at launch (or automatically if you have the snorkel setup with no pressurized raw water source). In that case, it seems intuitively like the cooling/lubricating water would never be exchanged, since there would never be enough velocity to create a venturi (I think that’s the correct word) and suck water out. Perhaps this is another reason nordic tugs opted for the pressurized source? But it does make me wonder about boats with no pressure feed. In the case of a sailboat, for example, the cutlass bearing could be fed with water from the front as it was underway; not the case on our boats. Any thoughts on that? It’s neither here nor there, just a curiosity point for me at the moment. Cheers for the great post! b On Feb 7, 2025, at 12:02, Kelly Britz via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: To add to this great post: I managed to track down specific maximum cutlass bearing wear along with other useful details on keeping the bearings healthy. Duramax is the manufacturer of the cutlass bearing NT installs on at least the 37, 39, & 40's and also NT’s recommended source for replacement bearings. Duramax’s Tom Farkas (West Coast Sales, Marine) sent me detailed Duramax and US Navy materials on cutlass bearing lubrication/operation theory and various shaft clearance parameters. Here are my take-aways from this material specific to a 2” NT37/39/40 propeller shaft: * New shaft-bearing clearance: Duramax P/N 870512100/”CALL” is the 2”IDx8”long nitrile rubber lined naval brass cutlass bearing for a 2” shaft, has an original manufactured ID of 2.006”-2.012” out of the box. * Running clearance: US Navy/NSTM “Minimum Operating clearance of bearings” (I assume after break-in) 0.017” clearance for a 2” shaft. * Max wear clearance: US Navy/NSTM “Total Clearance at which bearing should be renewed” for a 2” shaft is 0.091” (at ~3/32", that would certainly be visible and quite likely ‘thunk’ when lifting the prop and shaft!). * Wear factors: “Duramax Factors That Affect Cutlass Bearing Wear” * Load * Rubbing velocity * Time at 0 velocity * (suggests if vessel idle > 1 week, shaft should be rotated 450 degrees weekly) * Uniformity of loading * (I assume this includes all shaft alignment issues) * Velocity time interaction * Shaft and bearing roughness * Shaft and bearing combination * Water quality and contamination * Raw Water Temperature * Raw water lubrication temperature should be as close to ambient sea water temp as possible * Raw water feed connection should occur before heat exchanger * Raw water flow requirements: Duramax recommended raw water flow to the cutlass bearing should be 4 gpm for a 2” shaft, more is better. * Raw water pressure requirements: PYI Inc, says 10 psi of raw water pressure for their PSS Dripless Shaft Seal. Additional material that Tom Farkas provided included a technical paper titled “Water Lubricated Rubber Bearings, the Principles of Design and Operation” by Michael Brakey. Included in this paper was the following quote that likely addresses some of Steve Day/SINBAD’s silty raw water lubrication concerns: “When a grain of sand is trapped between the shaft and the rubber, it is depressed into the softer material and rolled into an adjacent water groove where it is immediately flushed out of the bearing. With proper loading, rotational speed and clearance, the shaft will ride on a thin film or wedge of water. When the shaft actually lifts itself off the rubber lands and rides a water wedge, we have what is known as hydrodynamic lubrication. At this juncture both friction and wear decrease significantly.” This M.Brakey paper goes on with several pages of detailed theory and calculations about bearing loading, shaft velocity, and thermal expansion in the determination of proper bearing-shaft clearances for water lubricated rubber bearings. When I get a chance, I will combine all this detailed original material from Tom Farkas / Duramax / PYI that I’ve merely summarized here, then post it together to SENTOA/Maintenance so that it will be easier for others to find down the road. It’s great to finally know more about our cutlass bearing parameters. SANDPIPER is now at 12,800 engine hours on the original cutlass bearings and we've been measuring 0.021-0.023” of shaft play and wondering where we stand. Thank you Ben McCafferty, I will be adding a little in-line flow indicator on the raw water shaft seal/cutlass line and will attempt to measure pressure/flow rate before we go into the yard in April. Good luck to Steve Day, I hope you get good news in the yard this week there in the UK! Please report back. Regards, Kelly Britz Sandpiper, NT37-042, 2001 Edmonds/Seattle WA ________________________________ From: Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2025 7:53 AM To: South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> Cc: Steve Day <s.day2905@gmail.com> Subject: [Sentoa] Re: Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals Many thanks for all the replies, appreciated. I have measured the overall length of the PSS and it is exactly as it should be with 1'' of compression, I will compress a bit further and see whether this improves the black misting (new set screws). I have noticed that on tickover (600/900 rpm) there is a very slight 'wobble' felt on the stainless steel collar, this is less than 1mm of movement, but I can't feel any noticeable movement on the actual shaft. I'll get the alignment checked. Due to be lifted out in the next week or so, and the decision to change cutlass bearings and switch to lip seal or upgrade the PSS will then be made. Steve SINBAD 37-192 On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 at 22:20, Fire Fighter via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: Good idea Harry. PSS also sells a part made for this purpose, but a clamp is less money. Tom ________________________________ From: Harry Hungate via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> Sent: February 1, 2025 2:07 PM To: sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> Cc: Harry Hungate <wcx7106@gmail.com<mailto:wcx7106@gmail.com>> Subject: [Sentoa] Re: Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals One more comment on compressing the bellows on the PSS shaft seal: After compressing the bellows sufficiently to obtain dripless service, install a hose clamp around the shaft up tight against the stainless steel rotor. This will keep the rotor from creeping--not everyone gets the allen screws (grub screws to the British subjects!) sufficiently tight. Harry Hungate On Feb 1, 2025, at 4:25 PM, Joe Pucciarelli via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote:   I also had issues caused by a PSS seal not being properly compressed when it was replaced. I agree with Steve that following the specs in the PSS table should lead to a dry and clean bilge! However, it’s absolutely imperative to use new sets screws as stated in the PSS documents! Joe Pucciarelli MARJOE NT37-175 On Feb 1, 2025, at 3:23 PM, sadler love via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: CAUTION: External Email. The last time I had my PSS shaft seal replaced, after a year or so, it began to spray/leak at medium to high rpm. On the PSS website, I found a table showing how much compression should be put on my seal, and discovered I needed to increase the compression a full inch. I did so, and all spray/leakage disappeared at all rpms. Apparently the seal was not properly compressed when it was replaced. So, you might want to go to the website and get the compression for your seal and check it. The table is here: https://www.shaftseal.com/marine/pss-type-a-seal.html On Feb 1, 2025, at 12:23 PM, Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: Hi all, and greetings from the UK. My 2007 NT37 has now done 2300 hours, when I purchased the boat in 2018 it had done around 1100 hours. As far as I'm aware the cutlass bearings have never been replaced. The boat is in salt water which can be a bit silty on the UK east coast. No undue vibration when going forward, but a bit grumbly in reverse. Secondly, I have the PSS shaft seal, which I replaced like for like in 2019, whilst the seal does not leak per se, I do get the messy black mist spray that covers the area around the seal. So, 2 questions: - Have I gone beyond what would be a reasonable length of time / hours to change the bearings? (Does anybody have details of suitable replacements?) - Has anybody tried using lip shaft seals (thinking Lasdrop) instead of PSS and had totally leak free shaft and a nice clean bilge?. Thanks all Steve SINBAD NT37/192 _______________________________________________ Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> _______________________________________________ Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> _______________________________________________ Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> _______________________________________________ Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org<mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> _______________________________________________ Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org

Hey Kelly! I didn’t intend any correction—believe me, the older I get, the less I know. I love working through stuff like this with everyone as the collective knowledge comes together and we come to a consensus. That second paragraph really sums it up and answers my previous “curiosity” question! I think that when my line had clogged, I just got lucky that we never ran much over 7-8 knots and the (very) old water in the log was staying cool enough not to hurt things. Anyway, all clear and thank you again! b > On Feb 7, 2025, at 16:10, Kelly Britz via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: > > thank you Ben for the corrections, I have a correction of my own, the shaft bearing lubrication water pressure bullet should have been: > Raw water pressure requirements: PYI Inc, says a MAX of 10 psi of raw water pressure for their PSS Dripless Shaft Seal for boats going over 12 knots. > The folks at PYI Pro installation instructions go on that: > "... at over approximately 12 knots of speed a vacuum is created in the stern tube and water is drawn away from the PSS resulting in a loss of cooling water that may cause the carbon to over heat..." > > and - > for any displacement boat with bearings in a shaft log (that fiberglass part of the boat to which the shaft seal is attached and both 8" long shaft bearings are inserted that) "...must plumb water to the seal. Regardless of the method, it is imperative that the mating faces of the stainless steel rotor and carbon stator receive adequate water flow to cool and lubricate the seal faces at all times." > > They go on to add that low speed vessels can attach a vent hose to their PSS seal as long at the open end is fixed central to the vessel and is at least 2' above the water line. > > But for vessels whose prop ever comes out of the water, they need a pressurized lubrication water feed. > > My bad, thank you again Ben! > > From: Ben McCafferty <bmacpiper@me.com <mailto:bmacpiper@me.com>> > Sent: Friday, February 7, 2025 1:09 PM > To: South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> > Cc: Kelly Britz <kelbritz@hotmail.com <mailto:kelbritz@hotmail.com>> > Subject: Re: [Sentoa] Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals > > Hey Kelly! > Wow, that’s a ton of great info, thanks for adding that for the archives! > > A couple of minor additions for posterity: > > Our cutlass bearings (the generic noun) are also Cutless bearings (the specific brand name, incorrect spelling intentional and a trademark). > > Duramax is also sometimes seen as Johnson or Johnson Duramax—same thing, especially if called “Cutless” as per above. > > Lastly, I’m curious/pondering the 4gpm of recommended flow to the cutlass bearings, and 10psi for the PSS. Since the PSS can be used on a slow boat with no pressurized water feed—just with a snorkel from the pss barb—in theory, the water floods into the log/stern tube from the back when you burp the seal at launch (or automatically if you have the snorkel setup with no pressurized raw water source). In that case, it seems intuitively like the cooling/lubricating water would never be exchanged, since there would never be enough velocity to create a venturi (I think that’s the correct word) and suck water out. Perhaps this is another reason nordic tugs opted for the pressurized source? But it does make me wonder about boats with no pressure feed. > > In the case of a sailboat, for example, the cutlass bearing could be fed with water from the front as it was underway; not the case on our boats. > > Any thoughts on that? It’s neither here nor there, just a curiosity point for me at the moment. > > Cheers for the great post! > b > > On Feb 7, 2025, at 12:02, Kelly Britz via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: > > To add to this great post: I managed to track down specific maximum cutlass bearing wear along with other useful details on keeping the bearings healthy. > Duramax is the manufacturer of the cutlass bearing NT installs on at least the 37, 39, & 40's and also NT’s recommended source for replacement bearings. Duramax’s Tom Farkas (West Coast Sales, Marine) sent me detailed Duramax and US Navy materials on cutlass bearing lubrication/operation theory and various shaft clearance parameters. > Here are my take-aways from this material specific to a 2” NT37/39/40 propeller shaft: > New shaft-bearing clearance: Duramax P/N 870512100/”CALL” is the 2”IDx8”long nitrile rubber lined naval brass cutlass bearing for a 2” shaft, has an original manufactured ID of 2.006”-2.012” out of the box. > Running clearance: US Navy/NSTM “Minimum Operating clearance of bearings” (I assume after break-in) 0.017” clearance for a 2” shaft. > Max wear clearance: US Navy/NSTM “Total Clearance at which bearing should be renewed” for a 2” shaft is 0.091” (at ~3/32", that would certainly be visible and quite likely ‘thunk’ when lifting the prop and shaft!). > Wear factors: “Duramax Factors That Affect Cutlass Bearing Wear” > Load > Rubbing velocity > Time at 0 velocity > (suggests if vessel idle > 1 week, shaft should be rotated 450 degrees weekly) > Uniformity of loading > (I assume this includes all shaft alignment issues) > Velocity time interaction > Shaft and bearing roughness > Shaft and bearing combination > Water quality and contamination > Raw Water Temperature > Raw water lubrication temperature should be as close to ambient sea water temp as possible > Raw water feed connection should occur before heat exchanger > Raw water flow requirements: Duramax recommended raw water flow to the cutlass bearing should be 4 gpm for a 2” shaft, more is better. > Raw water pressure requirements: PYI Inc, says 10 psi of raw water pressure for their PSS Dripless Shaft Seal. > Additional material that Tom Farkas provided included a technical paper titled “Water Lubricated Rubber Bearings, the Principles of Design and Operation” by Michael Brakey. > Included in this paper was the following quote that likely addresses some of Steve Day/SINBAD’s silty raw water lubrication concerns: > “When a grain of sand is trapped between the shaft and the rubber, it is depressed into the softer material and rolled into an adjacent water groove where it is immediately flushed out of the bearing. With proper loading, rotational speed and clearance, the shaft will ride on a thin film or wedge of water. When the shaft actually lifts itself off the rubber lands and rides a water wedge, we have what is known as hydrodynamic lubrication. At this juncture both friction and wear decrease significantly.” > This M.Brakey paper goes on with several pages of detailed theory and calculations about bearing loading, shaft velocity, and thermal expansion in the determination of proper bearing-shaft clearances for water lubricated rubber bearings. > When I get a chance, I will combine all this detailed original material from Tom Farkas / Duramax / PYI that I’ve merely summarized here, then post it together to SENTOA/Maintenance so that it will be easier for others to find down the road. > It’s great to finally know more about our cutlass bearing parameters. SANDPIPER is now at 12,800 engine hours on the original cutlass bearings and we've been measuring 0.021-0.023” of shaft play and wondering where we stand. > Thank you Ben McCafferty, I will be adding a little in-line flow indicator on the raw water shaft seal/cutlass line and will attempt to measure pressure/flow rate before we go into the yard in April. > Good luck to Steve Day, I hope you get good news in the yard this week there in the UK! Please report back. > Regards, Kelly Britz > Sandpiper, NT37-042, 2001 > Edmonds/Seattle WA > > > From: Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> > Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2025 7:53 AM > To: South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> > Cc: Steve Day <s.day2905@gmail.com <mailto:s.day2905@gmail.com>> > Subject: [Sentoa] Re: Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals > > Many thanks for all the replies, appreciated. > > I have measured the overall length of the PSS and it is exactly as it should be with 1'' of compression, I will compress a bit further and see whether this improves the black misting (new set screws). I have noticed that on tickover (600/900 rpm) there is a very slight 'wobble' felt on the stainless steel collar, this is less than 1mm of movement, but I can't feel any noticeable movement on the actual shaft. I'll get the alignment checked. > > Due to be lifted out in the next week or so, and the decision to change cutlass bearings and switch to lip seal or upgrade the PSS will then be made. > > Steve > SINBAD > 37-192 > > On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 at 22:20, Fire Fighter via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: > Good idea Harry. PSS also sells a part made for this purpose, but a clamp is less money. > Tom > > From: Harry Hungate via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> > Sent: February 1, 2025 2:07 PM > To: sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> > Cc: Harry Hungate <wcx7106@gmail.com <mailto:wcx7106@gmail.com>> > Subject: [Sentoa] Re: Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals > > One more comment on compressing the bellows on the PSS shaft seal: After compressing the bellows sufficiently to obtain dripless service, install a hose clamp around the shaft up tight against the stainless steel rotor. This will keep the rotor from creeping--not everyone gets the allen screws (grub screws to the British subjects!) sufficiently tight. > Harry Hungate > > On Feb 1, 2025, at 4:25 PM, Joe Pucciarelli via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: > >  >  > I also had issues caused by a PSS seal not being properly compressed when it was replaced. I agree with Steve that following the specs in the PSS table should lead to a dry and clean bilge! However, it’s absolutely imperative to use new sets screws as stated in the PSS documents! > > Joe Pucciarelli > MARJOE > NT37-175 > > On Feb 1, 2025, at 3:23 PM, sadler love via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: > > CAUTION: External Email. > > > The last time I had my PSS shaft seal replaced, after a year or so, it began to spray/leak at medium to high rpm. > > On the PSS website, I found a table showing how much compression should be put on my seal, and discovered I needed to increase the compression a full inch. > > I did so, and all spray/leakage disappeared at all rpms. Apparently the seal was not properly compressed when it was replaced. So, you might want to go to the website and get the compression for your seal and check it. The table is here: https://www.shaftseal.com/marine/pss-type-a-seal.html > > On Feb 1, 2025, at 12:23 PM, Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: > > Hi all, and greetings from the UK. > > My 2007 NT37 has now done 2300 hours, when I purchased the boat in 2018 it had done around 1100 hours. As far as I'm aware the cutlass bearings have never been replaced. The boat is in salt water which can be a bit silty on the UK east coast. No undue vibration when going forward, but a bit grumbly in reverse. > > Secondly, I have the PSS shaft seal, which I replaced like for like in 2019, whilst the seal does not leak per se, I do get the messy black mist spray that covers the area around the seal. > > So, 2 questions: > - Have I gone beyond what would be a reasonable length of time / hours to change the bearings? (Does anybody have details of suitable replacements?) > - Has anybody tried using lip shaft seals (thinking Lasdrop) instead of PSS and had totally leak free shaft and a nice clean bilge?. > > Thanks all > > Steve > SINBAD > NT37/192 > > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org>_______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org>