Hi Ben, Not to start an argument but I am not aware of any deleterious wear on the shaft from the TideSeal interface. Feel free to choose one over the other as you see fit but the TideSeal has been much better than the PSS at keeping the bilge dry with minimal to no maintenance. Should the TideSeal need replacing, replacing the seal with the boat in the water is quite simple and does not require pulling the shaft... All the best, -Evan >> NT37-148 >> TUGAWAY > On Feb 11, 2025, at 20:23, Ben McCafferty via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: > > Except for the part where your $5,000, 2-inch stainless billet shaft becomes the wear item… > I can only speak to my own experience, but the fiddle and futz so far has been about 10 to 15 minutes each time the seal is removed or replaced. Not including, of course, breaking the shaft loose and removing the coupling, which must be done with either seal type. > Everything comes at a cost! > b > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Feb 11, 2025, at 07:18, Evan Effa via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: >> >> Impressive strategies & innovations… >> >> Or you just get a TideSeal and simplify things. >> >> No leak, little to no maintenance & a backup seal is easily ready to install if the original wears out. >> >> I would not willingly go back to the fiddle & futz of a PSS. >> >> >> -evan >> >> NT37-148 >> TUGAWAY >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> (please excuse the typos...) >> >>> On Feb 11, 2025, at 05:57, sadler love via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: >>> >>> Here’s what I made to do the compression: >>> <IMG_1525.jpeg> >>> <IMG_1524.jpeg> >>> It clamps onto the shaft, and you turn the three set screws slowly and evenly to compress the bellows. >>> >>>> On Feb 10, 2025, at 6:34 PM, Kelly Britz via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Steve, >>>> Hope you are having really good luck with SINBAD in the yard over there in the UK. >>>> We’re on our 3rd PSS shaft seal and happy enough with the product’s performance to keep using them. Like others here, we switched to PYI’s ‘Pro’ version with the silicon bellows and the shaft retaining collar (clamp) because of the petroleum resistance in addition to the longer service interval - we have a PTO hydraulic pump/tank/controls with lots of high pressure hoses sharing that salon bilge (running our bow thruster, davit and deck reel for the anchor rode). >>>> We experienced similar frustration struggling to achieve the full 1” pre-load compression on the Pro seal’s very stiff silicon bellows. I found it so difficult the first time, I too wondered if many yards would work that hard to actually do it properly, or if “some” compression is considered good enough. So I made a pair of tools to get exactly 1” of compression. >>>> So the following is more for others to track down in the blog archive than for your efforts Steve: >>>> Starting with a 6”x12” piece of ½” starboard (HPTE) temporally attached to the face of a ~20” piece of 2x6 (for table saw ripping safety); “bevel rip” part of one face along the long edge into an approx 2” tall, 15-20 degree uniform bevel until what was one of the long ½”edges is now near sharp (you could do this with a belt sander too but you need the bevels to be very uniform ); you want the finish on these beveled faces to be as smooth as possible without any chattering saw marks because these are going to be the hard working surfaces; discard the 2x6; cut the starboard into two 6”x6” pieces; drill a 2.25” hole in the middle of each; extend the hole to be a 2.25” slot, opening from the tapered edge (so as to be able to slide each sharp, forked edge of the 6x6 tool easily over a 2” shaft). >>>> After all the new shaft seal components are installed and well soap/glycerin lubricated, the Pro’s stiff silicon bellows is ready to compress (and with the shaft coupling already attached and fully torqued to the marine gear!). I start by temporarily tightening the shaft retention clamp from the Pro kit snug to the forward face of the loose S/S rotor which is snug to the carbon stator attached to the silicon bellows. >>>> Then while rotating/wiggling the rotor in one hand to start to compress the bellows, you can then carefully sneak the first tapered 6x6 forked tool in between the S/S rotor and temporarily fixed retention clamp until the tapered edged forked tips emerges on the other side and the ½” parallel faces of the starboard is uniformly spreading the rotor and the clamp. You are half way there, but it’s the easy half. >>>> To insert the second tool, rotate the shaft 180; then, with forked tapered tool face against forked tapered tool face, work/wiggle/slide/cuss the S/S rotor to further compress the bellows in order to get the tapered face of the 2nd tool started in against the tapered face of the first tool, then carefully tap the butt end of each of the 6x6 tools farther and farther together onto the shaft until enough of the 1/2" thick 6x6 tools stack up face to face to get your 1” of pre-compression. >>>> Then of course, follow the rest of the install procedure locking down the S/S rotor with the doubled-up thread-locked cupped set-screws before loosening the shaft clamp to remove the two 6x6 tools, then relocate the shaft retention clamp to its intended snug position against the now locked S/S rotor. >>>> I haven't tried this but this entire process will likely work for achieving the 1" compression on the bellows with PYI's regular type "A" shaft seal if you also get PYI's expensive 2" shaft retention collar/clamp or a suitable equivalent like a 2" shaft zinc. >>>> Additionally, I will strongly encourage anyone DIYing their shaft seal to follow Stephen Hill’s great advice from his outstanding 2017 cutlass/shaft seal article (see SENTOA/Maintenance) and specifically to REPLACE those stock hex-head bolts connecting the shaft coupling flange to the marine gear with Grade 8, 5/8”-18 x 2-1/4” socket head (allen) cap bolts (I wasn’t able to find 2-1/4” in grade 8 so used 2-1/2” along with grinder modified 1/8” thick, 5/8” head bolt washers under the allen heads). Removes a lot of frustration and makes achieving the correct torque a whole lot easier using a male allen socket instead of struggling with 2 wrenches in a tight part of your engine room. >>>> Good luck! >>>> Kelly Britz, SANDPIPER, NT37-042 >>>> Edmonds/Seattle, WA >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2025 9:23 AM >>>> To: South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> >>>> Cc: Steve Day <s.day2905@gmail.com <mailto:s.day2905@gmail.com>> >>>> Subject: [Sentoa] Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals >>>> >>>> Hi all, and greetings from the UK. >>>> >>>> My 2007 NT37 has now done 2300 hours, when I purchased the boat in 2018 it had done around 1100 hours. As far as I'm aware the cutlass bearings have never been replaced. The boat is in salt water which can be a bit silty on the UK east coast. No undue vibration when going forward, but a bit grumbly in reverse. >>>> >>>> Secondly, I have the PSS shaft seal, which I replaced like for like in 2019, whilst the seal does not leak per se, I do get the messy black mist spray that covers the area around the seal. >>>> >>>> So, 2 questions: >>>> - Have I gone beyond what would be a reasonable length of time / hours to change the bearings? (Does anybody have details of suitable replacements?) >>>> - Has anybody tried using lip shaft seals (thinking Lasdrop) instead of PSS and had totally leak free shaft and a nice clean bilge?. >>>> >>>> Thanks all >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> SINBAD >>>> NT37/192 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org

Thanks Evan! I always appreciate other viewpoints, and partially I was just joshin’ ya a bit. I did mention in an earlier post that my wear comment was based on others’ experience, not mine personally. So it’s worth about what it cost for me to type it haha. I have indeed read other experiences where Tides seals needed to be moved around (when replaced) to get a good future seal. But I’m guessing we’re talking thousands and thousands of hours in those cases, or operation in silty water. A couple of things that I’d offer back. You stated that the Tides Seal “has been much better than the PSS at keeping the bilge dry”—which I’d point out is just in your own experience. Mine has been that both the old and the new PSS versions have kept the bilge dry, so the Tides wouldn’t be “better” for me—dry is dry—just a different way of solving the problem. The “change the seal in the water” is a cool concept—but in that case, I’d point out that the user is opening a hole through the boat into the bilge (when the old seal is removed), allowing water to come in until the old seal is cut off and the new one is in place. Since prop shaft seals aren’t typically replaced very often (except when user error causes them to fail, ahem…my bad), I doubt most users would really risk this procedure in the water except in an emergency. I will definitely concede that’s it’s a nice option to have in an emergency, though, having just experienced said emergency in the past year! :) Although—in my case, I would have replaced the old with the new, and then immdediately burned up the new one again. Unless I had the presence of mind to replace the seal, and then drop the anchor until I knew better what was going on to cause the failure in the first place. One can dream, haha… So my point here is that a “typical” seal replacement is going to happen on the hard anyway, and nordic tugs set us up for success by allowing the shaft to be slid back far enough to remove the coupling and replace the seal, without needing to drop the rudder. At least that’s the case on my era of 37 footer. Aside to that—my electronics guy once told me a story whereby a client insisted on changing a thru-hull transducer *in the water* because he didn’t have time to haul—so they removed the old one (with roughly a 2” hole), a diver smashed something to the hole in the hull to slow the water flow into the boat, and then the new one was gooped up and quickly pushed into the hole by the diver. Now *that* is commitment to the cause! (Or serious trust or stupidity?) Lastly—I found a decent article on why one might choose Tides vs. PSS for the prop shaft seal. To paraphrase—Tides seals to the shaft itself, and thus requires a nearly-perfect/smooth prop shaft to get a good seal, and very good alignment/true, plus offers the afore-mentioned extra seal on the shaft which can be replaced (in my mind) in an emergency while in the water. The PSS, with its 2 o-rings in a collar to the shaft, offers a bit more forgiveness for a less-than-perfect shaft surface, and still relies on reasonably good alignment/true. I think you can’t go wrong, if you understand the limitations of each one. Nothing is going to fix a badly pitted and/or crooked shaft, bad/loose Cutless bearings, etc. I’d hope that those conditions would make themselves known (and be corrected) by giving vibration, etc. One last note/tip that I’d mention, regardless of seal type, is to be sure to dress the shaft after removing the old seal (mostly in the case of the PSS) and before installing the new one—the set screws can create a small burr on the shaft, and that will damage the o-rings on the new seal collar as it slides by (and/or cause the Tides not to seal, depending on where it lands in any particular boat). That would be a bummer. Cheers Evan! b > On Feb 12, 2025, at 05:39, Evan Effa <eheffa@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > Not to start an argument but I am not aware of any deleterious wear on the shaft from the TideSeal interface. > > Feel free to choose one over the other as you see fit but the TideSeal has been much better than the PSS at keeping the bilge dry with minimal to no maintenance. Should the TideSeal need replacing, replacing the seal with the boat in the water is quite simple and does not require pulling the shaft... > > All the best, > > -Evan > >>> NT37-148 >>> TUGAWAY > >> On Feb 11, 2025, at 20:23, Ben McCafferty via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: >> >> Except for the part where your $5,000, 2-inch stainless billet shaft becomes the wear item… >> I can only speak to my own experience, but the fiddle and futz so far has been about 10 to 15 minutes each time the seal is removed or replaced. Not including, of course, breaking the shaft loose and removing the coupling, which must be done with either seal type. >> Everything comes at a cost! >> b >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Feb 11, 2025, at 07:18, Evan Effa via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: >>> >>> Impressive strategies & innovations… >>> >>> Or you just get a TideSeal and simplify things. >>> >>> No leak, little to no maintenance & a backup seal is easily ready to install if the original wears out. >>> >>> I would not willingly go back to the fiddle & futz of a PSS. >>> >>> >>> -evan >>> >>> NT37-148 >>> TUGAWAY >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> (please excuse the typos...) >>> >>>> On Feb 11, 2025, at 05:57, sadler love via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Here’s what I made to do the compression: >>>> <IMG_1525.jpeg> >>>> <IMG_1524.jpeg> >>>> It clamps onto the shaft, and you turn the three set screws slowly and evenly to compress the bellows. >>>> >>>>> On Feb 10, 2025, at 6:34 PM, Kelly Britz via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Steve, >>>>> Hope you are having really good luck with SINBAD in the yard over there in the UK. >>>>> We’re on our 3rd PSS shaft seal and happy enough with the product’s performance to keep using them. Like others here, we switched to PYI’s ‘Pro’ version with the silicon bellows and the shaft retaining collar (clamp) because of the petroleum resistance in addition to the longer service interval - we have a PTO hydraulic pump/tank/controls with lots of high pressure hoses sharing that salon bilge (running our bow thruster, davit and deck reel for the anchor rode). >>>>> We experienced similar frustration struggling to achieve the full 1” pre-load compression on the Pro seal’s very stiff silicon bellows. I found it so difficult the first time, I too wondered if many yards would work that hard to actually do it properly, or if “some” compression is considered good enough. So I made a pair of tools to get exactly 1” of compression. >>>>> So the following is more for others to track down in the blog archive than for your efforts Steve: >>>>> Starting with a 6”x12” piece of ½” starboard (HPTE) temporally attached to the face of a ~20” piece of 2x6 (for table saw ripping safety); “bevel rip” part of one face along the long edge into an approx 2” tall, 15-20 degree uniform bevel until what was one of the long ½”edges is now near sharp (you could do this with a belt sander too but you need the bevels to be very uniform ); you want the finish on these beveled faces to be as smooth as possible without any chattering saw marks because these are going to be the hard working surfaces; discard the 2x6; cut the starboard into two 6”x6” pieces; drill a 2.25” hole in the middle of each; extend the hole to be a 2.25” slot, opening from the tapered edge (so as to be able to slide each sharp, forked edge of the 6x6 tool easily over a 2” shaft). >>>>> After all the new shaft seal components are installed and well soap/glycerin lubricated, the Pro’s stiff silicon bellows is ready to compress (and with the shaft coupling already attached and fully torqued to the marine gear!). I start by temporarily tightening the shaft retention clamp from the Pro kit snug to the forward face of the loose S/S rotor which is snug to the carbon stator attached to the silicon bellows. >>>>> Then while rotating/wiggling the rotor in one hand to start to compress the bellows, you can then carefully sneak the first tapered 6x6 forked tool in between the S/S rotor and temporarily fixed retention clamp until the tapered edged forked tips emerges on the other side and the ½” parallel faces of the starboard is uniformly spreading the rotor and the clamp. You are half way there, but it’s the easy half. >>>>> To insert the second tool, rotate the shaft 180; then, with forked tapered tool face against forked tapered tool face, work/wiggle/slide/cuss the S/S rotor to further compress the bellows in order to get the tapered face of the 2nd tool started in against the tapered face of the first tool, then carefully tap the butt end of each of the 6x6 tools farther and farther together onto the shaft until enough of the 1/2" thick 6x6 tools stack up face to face to get your 1” of pre-compression. >>>>> Then of course, follow the rest of the install procedure locking down the S/S rotor with the doubled-up thread-locked cupped set-screws before loosening the shaft clamp to remove the two 6x6 tools, then relocate the shaft retention clamp to its intended snug position against the now locked S/S rotor. >>>>> I haven't tried this but this entire process will likely work for achieving the 1" compression on the bellows with PYI's regular type "A" shaft seal if you also get PYI's expensive 2" shaft retention collar/clamp or a suitable equivalent like a 2" shaft zinc. >>>>> Additionally, I will strongly encourage anyone DIYing their shaft seal to follow Stephen Hill’s great advice from his outstanding 2017 cutlass/shaft seal article (see SENTOA/Maintenance) and specifically to REPLACE those stock hex-head bolts connecting the shaft coupling flange to the marine gear with Grade 8, 5/8”-18 x 2-1/4” socket head (allen) cap bolts (I wasn’t able to find 2-1/4” in grade 8 so used 2-1/2” along with grinder modified 1/8” thick, 5/8” head bolt washers under the allen heads). Removes a lot of frustration and makes achieving the correct torque a whole lot easier using a male allen socket instead of struggling with 2 wrenches in a tight part of your engine room. >>>>> Good luck! >>>>> Kelly Britz, SANDPIPER, NT37-042 >>>>> Edmonds/Seattle, WA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2025 9:23 AM >>>>> To: South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> >>>>> Cc: Steve Day <s.day2905@gmail.com <mailto:s.day2905@gmail.com>> >>>>> Subject: [Sentoa] Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, and greetings from the UK. >>>>> >>>>> My 2007 NT37 has now done 2300 hours, when I purchased the boat in 2018 it had done around 1100 hours. As far as I'm aware the cutlass bearings have never been replaced. The boat is in salt water which can be a bit silty on the UK east coast. No undue vibration when going forward, but a bit grumbly in reverse. >>>>> >>>>> Secondly, I have the PSS shaft seal, which I replaced like for like in 2019, whilst the seal does not leak per se, I do get the messy black mist spray that covers the area around the seal. >>>>> >>>>> So, 2 questions: >>>>> - Have I gone beyond what would be a reasonable length of time / hours to change the bearings? (Does anybody have details of suitable replacements?) >>>>> - Has anybody tried using lip shaft seals (thinking Lasdrop) instead of PSS and had totally leak free shaft and a nice clean bilge?. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks all >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> SINBAD >>>>> NT37/192 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org >

Has anyone tried the Norscot Shaft seals, I can see the attraction of not having to have a water feed together with 3 internal lip seals and no bellows, but they don't seem to be that common. Any views? Steve SINBAD NT37/192 On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 at 15:31, Ben McCafferty via Sentoa < sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: > Thanks Evan! > > I always appreciate other viewpoints, and partially I was just joshin’ ya > a bit. I did mention in an earlier post that my wear comment was based on > others’ experience, not mine personally. So it’s worth about what it cost > for me to type it haha. I have indeed read other experiences where Tides > seals needed to be moved around (when replaced) to get a good future seal. > But I’m guessing we’re talking thousands and thousands of hours in those > cases, or operation in silty water. > > A couple of things that I’d offer back. You stated that the Tides Seal > “has been much better than the PSS at keeping the bilge dry”—which I’d > point out is just in your own experience. Mine has been that both the old > and the new PSS versions have kept the bilge dry, so the Tides wouldn’t be > “better” for me—dry is dry—just a different way of solving the problem. > > The “change the seal in the water” is a cool concept—but in that case, I’d > point out that the user is opening a hole through the boat into the bilge > (when the old seal is removed), allowing water to come in until the old > seal is cut off and the new one is in place. Since prop shaft seals aren’t > typically replaced very often (except when user error causes them to fail, > ahem…my bad), I doubt most users would really risk this procedure in the > water except in an emergency. I will definitely concede that’s it’s a nice > option to have in an emergency, though, having just experienced said > emergency in the past year! :) Although—in my case, I would have replaced > the old with the new, and then immdediately burned up the new one again. > Unless I had the presence of mind to replace the seal, and then drop the > anchor until I knew better what was going on to cause the failure in the > first place. One can dream, haha… So my point here is that a “typical” seal > replacement is going to happen on the hard anyway, and nordic tugs set us > up for success by allowing the shaft to be slid back far enough to remove > the coupling and replace the seal, without needing to drop the rudder. At > least that’s the case on my era of 37 footer. > > Aside to that—my electronics guy once told me a story whereby a client > insisted on changing a thru-hull transducer *in the water* because he > didn’t have time to haul—so they removed the old one (with roughly a 2” > hole), a diver smashed something to the hole in the hull to slow the water > flow into the boat, and then the new one was gooped up and quickly pushed > into the hole by the diver. Now *that* is commitment to the cause! (Or > serious trust or stupidity?) > > Lastly—I found a decent article on why one might choose Tides vs. PSS for > the prop shaft seal. To paraphrase—Tides seals to the shaft itself, and > thus requires a nearly-perfect/smooth prop shaft to get a good seal, and > very good alignment/true, plus offers the afore-mentioned extra seal on the > shaft which can be replaced (in my mind) in an emergency while in the > water. The PSS, with its 2 o-rings in a collar to the shaft, offers a bit > more forgiveness for a less-than-perfect shaft surface, and still relies on > reasonably good alignment/true. I think you can’t go wrong, if you > understand the limitations of each one. Nothing is going to fix a badly > pitted and/or crooked shaft, bad/loose Cutless bearings, etc. I’d hope that > those conditions would make themselves known (and be corrected) by giving > vibration, etc. > > One last note/tip that I’d mention, regardless of seal type, is to be sure > to dress the shaft after removing the old seal (mostly in the case of the > PSS) and before installing the new one—the set screws can create a small > burr on the shaft, and that will damage the o-rings on the new seal collar > as it slides by (and/or cause the Tides not to seal, depending on where it > lands in any particular boat). That would be a bummer. > > Cheers Evan! > b > > On Feb 12, 2025, at 05:39, Evan Effa <eheffa@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > Not to start an argument but I am not aware of any deleterious wear on the > shaft from the TideSeal interface. > > Feel free to choose one over the other as you see fit but the TideSeal has > been much better than the PSS at keeping the bilge dry with minimal to no > maintenance. Should the TideSeal need replacing, replacing the seal with > the boat in the water is quite simple and does not require pulling the > shaft... > > All the best, > > -Evan > > NT37-148 > TUGAWAY > > > On Feb 11, 2025, at 20:23, Ben McCafferty via Sentoa < > sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: > > Except for the part where your $5,000, 2-inch stainless billet shaft > becomes the wear item… > I can only speak to my own experience, but the fiddle and futz so far has > been about 10 to 15 minutes each time the seal is removed or replaced. Not > including, of course, breaking the shaft loose and removing the coupling, > which must be done with either seal type. > Everything comes at a cost! > b > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 11, 2025, at 07:18, Evan Effa via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > wrote: > > Impressive strategies & innovations… > > Or you just get a TideSeal and simplify things. > > No leak, little to no maintenance & a backup seal is easily ready to > install if the original wears out. > > I would not willingly go back to the fiddle & futz of a PSS. > > > -evan > > NT37-148 > TUGAWAY > > > Sent from my iPhone > (please excuse the typos...) > > On Feb 11, 2025, at 05:57, sadler love via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > wrote: > > Here’s what I made to do the compression: > <IMG_1525.jpeg> > <IMG_1524.jpeg> > It clamps onto the shaft, and you turn the three set screws slowly and > evenly to compress the bellows. > > On Feb 10, 2025, at 6:34 PM, Kelly Britz via Sentoa < > sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > Hope you are having really good luck with SINBAD in the yard over there in > the UK. > We’re on our 3rd PSS shaft seal and happy enough with the product’s > performance to keep using them. Like others here, we switched to PYI’s > ‘Pro’ version with the silicon bellows and the shaft retaining collar > (clamp) because of the petroleum resistance in addition to the longer > service interval - we have a PTO hydraulic pump/tank/controls with lots of > high pressure hoses sharing that salon bilge (running our bow thruster, > davit and deck reel for the anchor rode). > We experienced similar frustration struggling to achieve the full 1” > pre-load compression on the Pro seal’s very stiff silicon bellows. I found > it so difficult the first time, I too wondered if many yards would work > that hard to actually do it properly, or if “some” compression is > considered good enough. So I made a pair of tools to get exactly 1” of > compression. > So the following is more for others to track down in the blog archive than > for your efforts Steve: > Starting with a 6”x12” piece of ½” starboard (HPTE) temporally attached to > the face of a ~20” piece of 2x6 (for table saw ripping safety); “bevel rip” > part of one face along the long edge into an approx 2” tall, 15-20 degree > uniform bevel until what was one of the long ½”edges is now near sharp (you > could do this with a belt sander too but you need the bevels to be very > uniform ); you want the finish on these beveled faces to be as smooth as > possible without any chattering saw marks because these are going to be the > hard working surfaces; discard the 2x6; cut the starboard into two 6”x6” > pieces; drill a 2.25” hole in the middle of each; extend the hole to be a > 2.25” slot, opening from the tapered edge (so as to be able to slide each > sharp, forked edge of the 6x6 tool easily over a 2” shaft). > After all the new shaft seal components are installed and well > soap/glycerin lubricated, the Pro’s stiff silicon bellows is ready to > compress (and with the shaft coupling already attached and fully torqued to > the marine gear!). I start by temporarily tightening the shaft retention > clamp from the Pro kit snug to the forward face of the loose S/S rotor > which is snug to the carbon stator attached to the silicon bellows. > Then while rotating/wiggling the rotor in one hand to start to compress > the bellows, you can then carefully sneak the first tapered 6x6 forked tool > in between the S/S rotor and temporarily fixed retention clamp until the > tapered edged forked tips emerges on the other side and the ½” parallel > faces of the starboard is uniformly spreading the rotor and the clamp. You > are half way there, but it’s the easy half. > To insert the second tool, rotate the shaft 180; then, with forked tapered > tool face against forked tapered tool face, work/wiggle/slide/cuss the S/S > rotor to further compress the bellows in order to get the tapered face of > the 2nd tool started in against the tapered face of the first tool, then > carefully tap the butt end of each of the 6x6 tools farther and farther > together onto the shaft until enough of the 1/2" thick 6x6 tools stack up > face to face to get your 1” of pre-compression. > Then of course, follow the rest of the install procedure locking down the > S/S rotor with the doubled-up thread-locked cupped set-screws before > loosening the shaft clamp to remove the two 6x6 tools, then relocate the > shaft retention clamp to its intended snug position against the now locked > S/S rotor. > I haven't tried this but this entire process will likely work for > achieving the 1" compression on the bellows with PYI's regular type "A" > shaft seal if you also get PYI's expensive 2" shaft retention collar/clamp > or a suitable equivalent like a 2" shaft zinc. > Additionally, I will strongly encourage anyone DIYing their shaft seal to > follow Stephen Hill’s great advice from his outstanding 2017 cutlass/shaft > seal article (see SENTOA/Maintenance) and specifically to REPLACE those > stock hex-head bolts connecting the shaft coupling flange to the marine > gear with Grade 8, 5/8”-18 x 2-1/4” socket head (allen) cap bolts (I wasn’t > able to find 2-1/4” in grade 8 so used 2-1/2” along with grinder modified > 1/8” thick, 5/8” head bolt washers under the allen heads). Removes a lot > of frustration and makes achieving the correct torque a whole lot easier > using a male allen socket instead of struggling with 2 wrenches in a tight > part of your engine room. > Good luck! > Kelly Britz, SANDPIPER, NT37-042 > Edmonds/Seattle, WA > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, February 1, 2025 9:23 AM > *To:* South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) < > sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> > *Cc:* Steve Day <s.day2905@gmail.com> > *Subject:* [Sentoa] Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals > > Hi all, and greetings from the UK. > > My 2007 NT37 has now done 2300 hours, when I purchased the boat in 2018 it > had done around 1100 hours. As far as I'm aware the cutlass bearings have > never been replaced. The boat is in salt water which can be a bit silty on > the UK east coast. No undue vibration when going forward, but a bit grumbly > in reverse. > > Secondly, I have the PSS shaft seal, which I replaced like for like in > 2019, whilst the seal does not leak per se, I do get the messy black mist > spray that covers the area around the seal. > > So, 2 questions: > - Have I gone beyond what would be a reasonable length of time / hours to > change the bearings? (Does anybody have details of suitable replacements?) > - Has anybody tried using lip shaft seals (thinking Lasdrop) instead of > PSS and had totally leak free shaft and a nice clean bilge?. > > Thanks all > > Steve > SINBAD > NT37/192 > > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org >

I haven’t Steve, it’s interesting. Here’s a decent video for others who are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUiydzhPwog What I note— —To the previous “wear” comment, notice in the video how they are having to change location of this seal based on past wear (my point re: Tides, but again, no idea how long and under what conditions any lip seal would cause this—I just mean that to demonstrate the concept I referred to). —The shaft prep for this one seems pretty specific—I think the “need a nearly perfect shaft surface” applies as well on this one, like the Tides—and also mentioned is “shaft alignment is critical”, which also echoes the Tides. —There is still lubrication involved, but it seems to be ATF instead of water, yeah? Maybe it’s “one more thing” to have to have on hand? Given all the precision required here, plus a slightly more complicated install, I think I’d vote for the Tides if one was after a lip seal; especially given the “extra” seal in place already on the Tides. Hmmm... Thanks for pointing this one out in any case Steve! Many times I’ve had that experience where, “if only I had a…” and some existing but unknown-to-me product would have fit the bill. Cheers, b > On Feb 12, 2025, at 08:02, Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> wrote: > > Has anyone tried the Norscot Shaft seals, I can see the attraction of not having to have a water feed together with 3 internal lip seals and no bellows, but they don't seem to be that common. Any views? > > Steve > SINBAD > NT37/192 > > On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 at 15:31, Ben McCafferty via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: >> Thanks Evan! >> >> I always appreciate other viewpoints, and partially I was just joshin’ ya a bit. I did mention in an earlier post that my wear comment was based on others’ experience, not mine personally. So it’s worth about what it cost for me to type it haha. I have indeed read other experiences where Tides seals needed to be moved around (when replaced) to get a good future seal. But I’m guessing we’re talking thousands and thousands of hours in those cases, or operation in silty water. >> >> A couple of things that I’d offer back. You stated that the Tides Seal “has been much better than the PSS at keeping the bilge dry”—which I’d point out is just in your own experience. Mine has been that both the old and the new PSS versions have kept the bilge dry, so the Tides wouldn’t be “better” for me—dry is dry—just a different way of solving the problem. >> >> The “change the seal in the water” is a cool concept—but in that case, I’d point out that the user is opening a hole through the boat into the bilge (when the old seal is removed), allowing water to come in until the old seal is cut off and the new one is in place. Since prop shaft seals aren’t typically replaced very often (except when user error causes them to fail, ahem…my bad), I doubt most users would really risk this procedure in the water except in an emergency. I will definitely concede that’s it’s a nice option to have in an emergency, though, having just experienced said emergency in the past year! :) Although—in my case, I would have replaced the old with the new, and then immdediately burned up the new one again. Unless I had the presence of mind to replace the seal, and then drop the anchor until I knew better what was going on to cause the failure in the first place. One can dream, haha… So my point here is that a “typical” seal replacement is going to happen on the hard anyway, and nordic tugs set us up for success by allowing the shaft to be slid back far enough to remove the coupling and replace the seal, without needing to drop the rudder. At least that’s the case on my era of 37 footer. >> >> Aside to that—my electronics guy once told me a story whereby a client insisted on changing a thru-hull transducer *in the water* because he didn’t have time to haul—so they removed the old one (with roughly a 2” hole), a diver smashed something to the hole in the hull to slow the water flow into the boat, and then the new one was gooped up and quickly pushed into the hole by the diver. Now *that* is commitment to the cause! (Or serious trust or stupidity?) >> >> Lastly—I found a decent article on why one might choose Tides vs. PSS for the prop shaft seal. To paraphrase—Tides seals to the shaft itself, and thus requires a nearly-perfect/smooth prop shaft to get a good seal, and very good alignment/true, plus offers the afore-mentioned extra seal on the shaft which can be replaced (in my mind) in an emergency while in the water. The PSS, with its 2 o-rings in a collar to the shaft, offers a bit more forgiveness for a less-than-perfect shaft surface, and still relies on reasonably good alignment/true. I think you can’t go wrong, if you understand the limitations of each one. Nothing is going to fix a badly pitted and/or crooked shaft, bad/loose Cutless bearings, etc. I’d hope that those conditions would make themselves known (and be corrected) by giving vibration, etc. >> >> One last note/tip that I’d mention, regardless of seal type, is to be sure to dress the shaft after removing the old seal (mostly in the case of the PSS) and before installing the new one—the set screws can create a small burr on the shaft, and that will damage the o-rings on the new seal collar as it slides by (and/or cause the Tides not to seal, depending on where it lands in any particular boat). That would be a bummer. >> >> Cheers Evan! >> b >> >>> On Feb 12, 2025, at 05:39, Evan Effa <eheffa@gmail.com <mailto:eheffa@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Ben, >>> >>> Not to start an argument but I am not aware of any deleterious wear on the shaft from the TideSeal interface. >>> >>> Feel free to choose one over the other as you see fit but the TideSeal has been much better than the PSS at keeping the bilge dry with minimal to no maintenance. Should the TideSeal need replacing, replacing the seal with the boat in the water is quite simple and does not require pulling the shaft... >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> -Evan >>> >>>>> NT37-148 >>>>> TUGAWAY >>> >>>> On Feb 11, 2025, at 20:23, Ben McCafferty via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Except for the part where your $5,000, 2-inch stainless billet shaft becomes the wear item… >>>> I can only speak to my own experience, but the fiddle and futz so far has been about 10 to 15 minutes each time the seal is removed or replaced. Not including, of course, breaking the shaft loose and removing the coupling, which must be done with either seal type. >>>> Everything comes at a cost! >>>> b >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Feb 11, 2025, at 07:18, Evan Effa via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Impressive strategies & innovations… >>>>> >>>>> Or you just get a TideSeal and simplify things. >>>>> >>>>> No leak, little to no maintenance & a backup seal is easily ready to install if the original wears out. >>>>> >>>>> I would not willingly go back to the fiddle & futz of a PSS. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -evan >>>>> >>>>> NT37-148 >>>>> TUGAWAY >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> (please excuse the typos...) >>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 11, 2025, at 05:57, sadler love via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Here’s what I made to do the compression: >>>>>> <IMG_1525.jpeg> >>>>>> <IMG_1524.jpeg> >>>>>> It clamps onto the shaft, and you turn the three set screws slowly and evenly to compress the bellows. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 10, 2025, at 6:34 PM, Kelly Britz via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Steve, >>>>>>> Hope you are having really good luck with SINBAD in the yard over there in the UK. >>>>>>> We’re on our 3rd PSS shaft seal and happy enough with the product’s performance to keep using them. Like others here, we switched to PYI’s ‘Pro’ version with the silicon bellows and the shaft retaining collar (clamp) because of the petroleum resistance in addition to the longer service interval - we have a PTO hydraulic pump/tank/controls with lots of high pressure hoses sharing that salon bilge (running our bow thruster, davit and deck reel for the anchor rode). >>>>>>> We experienced similar frustration struggling to achieve the full 1” pre-load compression on the Pro seal’s very stiff silicon bellows. I found it so difficult the first time, I too wondered if many yards would work that hard to actually do it properly, or if “some” compression is considered good enough. So I made a pair of tools to get exactly 1” of compression. >>>>>>> So the following is more for others to track down in the blog archive than for your efforts Steve: >>>>>>> Starting with a 6”x12” piece of ½” starboard (HPTE) temporally attached to the face of a ~20” piece of 2x6 (for table saw ripping safety); “bevel rip” part of one face along the long edge into an approx 2” tall, 15-20 degree uniform bevel until what was one of the long ½”edges is now near sharp (you could do this with a belt sander too but you need the bevels to be very uniform ); you want the finish on these beveled faces to be as smooth as possible without any chattering saw marks because these are going to be the hard working surfaces; discard the 2x6; cut the starboard into two 6”x6” pieces; drill a 2.25” hole in the middle of each; extend the hole to be a 2.25” slot, opening from the tapered edge (so as to be able to slide each sharp, forked edge of the 6x6 tool easily over a 2” shaft). >>>>>>> After all the new shaft seal components are installed and well soap/glycerin lubricated, the Pro’s stiff silicon bellows is ready to compress (and with the shaft coupling already attached and fully torqued to the marine gear!). I start by temporarily tightening the shaft retention clamp from the Pro kit snug to the forward face of the loose S/S rotor which is snug to the carbon stator attached to the silicon bellows. >>>>>>> Then while rotating/wiggling the rotor in one hand to start to compress the bellows, you can then carefully sneak the first tapered 6x6 forked tool in between the S/S rotor and temporarily fixed retention clamp until the tapered edged forked tips emerges on the other side and the ½” parallel faces of the starboard is uniformly spreading the rotor and the clamp. You are half way there, but it’s the easy half. >>>>>>> To insert the second tool, rotate the shaft 180; then, with forked tapered tool face against forked tapered tool face, work/wiggle/slide/cuss the S/S rotor to further compress the bellows in order to get the tapered face of the 2nd tool started in against the tapered face of the first tool, then carefully tap the butt end of each of the 6x6 tools farther and farther together onto the shaft until enough of the 1/2" thick 6x6 tools stack up face to face to get your 1” of pre-compression. >>>>>>> Then of course, follow the rest of the install procedure locking down the S/S rotor with the doubled-up thread-locked cupped set-screws before loosening the shaft clamp to remove the two 6x6 tools, then relocate the shaft retention clamp to its intended snug position against the now locked S/S rotor. >>>>>>> I haven't tried this but this entire process will likely work for achieving the 1" compression on the bellows with PYI's regular type "A" shaft seal if you also get PYI's expensive 2" shaft retention collar/clamp or a suitable equivalent like a 2" shaft zinc. >>>>>>> Additionally, I will strongly encourage anyone DIYing their shaft seal to follow Stephen Hill’s great advice from his outstanding 2017 cutlass/shaft seal article (see SENTOA/Maintenance) and specifically to REPLACE those stock hex-head bolts connecting the shaft coupling flange to the marine gear with Grade 8, 5/8”-18 x 2-1/4” socket head (allen) cap bolts (I wasn’t able to find 2-1/4” in grade 8 so used 2-1/2” along with grinder modified 1/8” thick, 5/8” head bolt washers under the allen heads). Removes a lot of frustration and makes achieving the correct torque a whole lot easier using a male allen socket instead of struggling with 2 wrenches in a tight part of your engine room. >>>>>>> Good luck! >>>>>>> Kelly Britz, SANDPIPER, NT37-042 >>>>>>> Edmonds/Seattle, WA >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Steve Day via Sentoa <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2025 9:23 AM >>>>>>> To: South East Nordic Tugs Owners' Association (SENTOA) <sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org>> >>>>>>> Cc: Steve Day <s.day2905@gmail.com <mailto:s.day2905@gmail.com>> >>>>>>> Subject: [Sentoa] Cutlass Bearings & shaft seals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, and greetings from the UK. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My 2007 NT37 has now done 2300 hours, when I purchased the boat in 2018 it had done around 1100 hours. As far as I'm aware the cutlass bearings have never been replaced. The boat is in salt water which can be a bit silty on the UK east coast. No undue vibration when going forward, but a bit grumbly in reverse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Secondly, I have the PSS shaft seal, which I replaced like for like in 2019, whilst the seal does not leak per se, I do get the messy black mist spray that covers the area around the seal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, 2 questions: >>>>>>> - Have I gone beyond what would be a reasonable length of time / hours to change the bearings? (Does anybody have details of suitable replacements?) >>>>>>> - Has anybody tried using lip shaft seals (thinking Lasdrop) instead of PSS and had totally leak free shaft and a nice clean bilge?. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks all >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> SINBAD >>>>>>> NT37/192 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa@lists.sentoa.org> >> To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org <mailto:sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org> > _______________________________________________ > Sentoa mailing list -- sentoa@lists.sentoa.org > To unsubscribe send an email to sentoa-leave@lists.sentoa.org